Thursday, 25 October 2012

Fed up with Nationalism - especially the Scottish kind

The headline says it all, but I would just add this question: if a Scottish sixteen year old is going to be allowed to vote to break up the Union, shouldn't an English adult be allowed to vote not to?

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82 comments:

  1. Is that part of their problem? There are 10 times more English the Scottish, so feel decisions about them are made by us. I know, in fact, Scotland has a dispassionate say in what we do (constituencies are smaller, SMPs vote for 1 thing in Scotland and another for England/Wales). But that's the perception.

    I can't see what harm Scottish Independence will have on England. I can see what difference it will make in Scotland. Getting rid of Scottish pound notes for Euros for e.g. Also, what they pay in tax and what they spend, I don't think tally as well as they think... Oh, that's the same as everywhere else though.

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  2. I can see both sides of this. Scottish independence is the dissolution of a Union agreed on in 1706 by both English and Scottish parliaments.

    The last example of part of the United Kingdom leaving was Southern Ireland becoming the Irish Free State in December 1922. On one hand it was the success of Sinn Fein in the December 1918 election, and their claim to have an Irish mandate (followed up by the declaration of an Irish Republic the following month) which led to this, as if it were an Irish only thing.

    But on the other hand, it was a Government accountable to a House of Commons elected by the people which negotiated independence, and the House of Commons which passed the necessary pieces of legislation in 1922. In those days, referendums were not used, and voters. for example in Essex or Hampshire, would have their say via their MP.

    In that era's concept of parliamentary democracy, Irish independence was not an Ireland-only matter, but a UK-wide matter, with MPs from across the nation able to vote on it.

    So, yes, voters in the non-Scottish parts of the UK should have a say, but the question is whether that would be in the indirect way of our MPs being able to debate and vote on it, or in the direct way of a referendum.

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  3. What would the result of an English vote to kick Scotland out of the union be?

    David
    West Yorkshire

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  4. Is the present English message to Scotland: You must stay? Would it affect the result of the referendum if the English message was: We love being in a nation with you, please stay?

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  5. Simon, my personal message to the Scots would be exactly as you say: "We love being in a nation with you .... etc."

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  6. All you do is fuckin' moan and whinge all the time - Scotland is a separate country, it's none of your fuckin' business, but like many an Anglican minister you seem to think you have a right to shove in your two penneth. You're like an old fish wife, moaning, bitching and wherever possible spreading malice and discord.

    I bet - many Evangelicals - you're fairly hot on the sex bit of Galatians 5:19-25, but miss out the bits on discord, factions etc...

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  7. Anonymous, you give internet anonymity its bad name.

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  8. BTW anon, it's two penn'orth, not two penneth. It is an abbreviation of 'two penny-worth'.

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  9. John, yes, that would be my personal message too, on my better days. It doesn't seem to be the political message, though, and I think that is an issue. Politicians can argue about economics, passport controls, armies etc etc all they like, but this will be decided on gut feeling, I think. And the strongest pull to stay in any relationship is, perhaps, "I am loved here". So many debates - think women bishops, for example - in the end come down to 'feel'. Purely rational argument functions in part as the backdrop we think we ought to be interested in, but more importantly the manner of the argument - the temper it is conducted in and so on - colours our decision more than the content of the argument. Hence, on the Scottish issue, the importance of politicians conveying "we in England would be so happy if you decided to stay because we love and value you" rather than "you would be foolish children to go". Or whatever!

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  10. I think the English should be given a referendum to see if they want the Scots to remain part of the union or not.
    Actually, if they want it, the Welsh and Northern Irish should have a referendum to on the matter of Scots in or out.
    Why should the Scots be the (only) ones given a say in this?
    It affects the English and the welsh and the northern Irish just as much as the Scots.

    Peter Crick, London

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    1. that should read 'referendum too'
      apologies

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  11. I'd be annoyed if the EU said that the UK couldn't vote to leave the EU without a referendum in Europe agreeing.

    I'm not saying we should leave the EU, or even that we should have a referendum on it, but its one thing for the other partners of a union to have a vote on your entrance/creation of the union and quite another to say you need their permission to leave it.

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  12. "BTW anon, it's two penn'orth, not two penneth. It is an abbreviation of 'two penny-worth'"

    QED my first comment... you really are a pedantic, fault-finding, small-minded, petulant, accusatory arse of a man.

    You moan about the weakness of the Anglican mission; but if the church is full of the likes of you, no wonder its mission is weak – who wants the likes of you as their minister.


    Anon

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    1. Thanks for your correction of 'twopenneth' with 'twopenn'orth'
      a shocking oversight on my part.

      Peter Crick

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  13. Anon

    "you're fairly hot on the sex bit"

    Well thank you I like to think it is pretty good, we can but try.

    You see the good sex bit comes from lifelong monogamy, of the natural kind. It is a spiritual thing. If your sex is just a me thing, there lies the problem.

    Sorry to hear that your sex life is not up to much anon.

    No good getting upset with Evangelicals though because of it.

    Phil

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  14. Anonymous,

    Scots must be so proud to have someone so secure and polite in their nation. I know my Scottish and wife and Dad are/were always so pleased and proud to hear someone like you speak up with added xenophobia in that way.

    Darren (Presbyterian, proper, not C of E)
    Chelmsford

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  15. Could England have a referendum on independence from the Union? After all it's only an accident of history that the British capital is London. It could have just as easily been Edinburgh, but for some reason Scottish kings plumped for the south.

    For that matter, can Essex? An independent Essex would be great. We already have our own language & national costume. The rest of the world would be "wel gel", near total employment etc. thanks to white-van-man.

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  16. Wow, where is this coming from brother?

    Here are my thoughts, though in no particular order:

    1. Although there is a part of me emotionally that loves the notion of Alba being independant from England, my head says that it would not be good for Scotland economically (unless the oil in the North Sea is owned by Scotland?)
    2. I don't think that Scots need Scotland to break from the rest of the UK in order to maintain their Scottish identity, (Scotland still has her own language [Gàidhlig] which the English were not able to eradicate). My Mother is from Scotland and she has lived in Australia for decades and she is still Scottish.
    3. If Scotland does vote for independance (though I personally think they won't),surely it will be only the minority of English people who will be upset. I don't think England has the right to prevent it. If it tries to, I think it would only serve to remind Scots why they want independant in the first place. Just imagine the uproar in England if they wanted to break away and Scotland said 'you cannae go'!
    4. Perhaps the reason why Scottish teenagers are being allowed to vote is because older Scots know better?
    .

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