tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post8343253500427777298..comments2024-03-28T08:30:20.260+01:00Comments on The Ugley Vicar: When it comes to strategy, faithfulness, not femaleness is the conservative Evangelical agendaAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-40513168263815239512010-08-05T03:06:04.753+01:002010-08-05T03:06:04.753+01:00Louis vuitton bags relates to their special materi...<b><a href="http://www.replica-bags-sale.com/" rel="nofollow">Louis vuitton bags</a></b> relates to their special material. What they used for their <b><a href="http://www.replica-bags-sale.com/" rel="nofollow">lv</a></b> are not leather or other common materials, they use a special material called <b><a href="http://www.replica-bags-sale.com/" rel="nofollow">louis vuitton</a></b> and add one more material called <b><a href="http://www.replica-bags-sale.com/" rel="nofollow">louis vuitton bag</a></b> to enhance its water-proof. It is not easy fray.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930473002862785602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-29774017340154273392010-07-31T14:58:37.849+01:002010-07-31T14:58:37.849+01:00From one anon to another - I could not agree with ...From one anon to another - I could not agree with your sentiments more. However, fear not, those of us at the grass roots are already engaged in painting the lifeboats and have been doing so since the day that women were allowed into the priesthood. On that day the Church of England that we grew up in changed for ever and we have accepted there is no way back. We acknowledge that we have lost the war and now we refuse any more to argue over any scraps the Liberals deign to throw us.<br />We now have several options and one of them is NOT yet more discussions at Diocescan level about a toothless Code of Practice that is as much use to Traditionalists as a chocolate teapot.<br />There is no longer a place for the Traditionalist Anglican in the C of E - the female activists in the House of Clergy at Synod have made that very plain .<br />Why should we want to stay in a Church that treats us with such derision? We have the development of the Ordinariate as I write, the 3rd Province and the also the option of the Traditional Anglican Church (of Great Britain).<br />For those that want to go the whole hog a bracing swim across the Tiber will be all that is needed.<br />At the end of the day the Liberals will be welcome to the mess and the empty pews that will be all that is left.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-3293077766685613292010-07-14T15:47:25.860+01:002010-07-14T15:47:25.860+01:00I'm fascinated by the scholarly trawling over ...I'm fascinated by the scholarly trawling over minutiae in response to the liberal takeover the Cof E is witnessing. You're being outmanouvered at every turn and have lost every battle so far. You don't seem to understand that you are engaged in a disputation for the very soul of your church with liberal opponents who are not interested in negtotiation or concessions. Why? Because they fervently believe they are right and everyone else is wrong. <br />Luther drew a line in the sand and said, "Here I stand, I can do no other." I wonder if I shall ever see any Anglicans begin doing this. C.S.Lewis talks about the road to hell not being steep but an oh so gentle decline. One day you stop, look back but can't see where you've come from. <br />Look and consider how far away you've come from all that the Anglican church has stood for.<br />Find some leaders and begin taking some action. Doing nothing is no longer an option for you otherwise in a few years your church will be unrecognisable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-82586586109455689562010-07-13T17:59:40.041+01:002010-07-13T17:59:40.041+01:00Stephen, there is a danger of nit-picking over off...Stephen, there is a danger of nit-picking over offices and roles. One of the great things about the Ordinal is that it teaches what the 'office' of priest entails in terms of the role, and comes up with something rather different from the previous notion of what it meant.<br /><br />I'd love to come to preach in your church. Contact me via the e-mail link at the bottom of the blog and I'll see what we can sort out.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-69777885292205278932010-07-13T17:56:40.714+01:002010-07-13T17:56:40.714+01:00Wow David, there's a fair amount of 'inter...Wow David, there's a fair amount of 'interpretation' going on in your post itself. Yet having said all that, I wonder how you would respond to the 'top five questions', which I doubt are much affected by the points you've raised.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-13617074133407891342010-07-13T16:05:13.677+01:002010-07-13T16:05:13.677+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.DaviGosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10847764561754658767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-18997640419210890092010-07-13T16:03:41.515+01:002010-07-13T16:03:41.515+01:00The Preface to the Declaration of Assent says that...The Preface to the Declaration of Assent says that the uniquely revealed faith of the Church is to be proclaimed afresh in each generation. Proclamation, of course, implies interpretation. (Evangelicals clearly make certain interpretations that are different to those of their Anglo-Catholic brothers and sisters.) And this process of interpretation must be undertaken “afresh in each generation” because each generation will have its own fresh insights as well as its own peculiar “blind-spots.” – Thus at around the end of the eighteenth century some Christians began to think that keeping slaves might not be consonant with the inherited faith of the church, although earlier generations of Christians had apparently seen no particular difficulty with it. Indeed those who argued against the abolition of slavery thought they had scripture on their side and those who argued for the abolition of slavery were the one who ahd to be more imaginative in their use of scripture. <br /><br />In more recent times, biblical scholarship has led to insights that were not available to earlier generations of Christians. For example there is now good evidence to suggest that not all the so called “Pauline” letters were written by the same hand, but that 1 Timothy, for example, was probably not written by the same Apostle Paul who wrote Romans, but by a later disciple of Paul. The later disciple writes in 1 Timothy 2:12 that no woman is to teach or have authority over a man but is to keep silent. However, the earlier Apostle apparently entrusted to a woman, the deacon Phoebe, the delivery of his letter to Rome. Phoebe, in this case, would not have been a mere ‘post-woman’ but would, most probably, have had to read and interpret the letter as part of the delivery process. This and other examples suggest that Paul may have accorded the ministry of woman a level of prominence in the Church which did not sit easily in the culture of the time. Thus the later writer of 1 Timothy may have been trying to ‘tone down’ the apostle’s approach so as to make it seem more acceptable to the culture of its age.<br /><br />These and similar insights were not available to the Protestant reformers nor, indeed, to those generations of the church involved in the process of “reception” through which the canon of Scripture took shape; but they are available to us and must surely take them in to account as we, in our turn, offer a fresh proclamation of the ancient formularies that is appropriate to our own culture.DaviGosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10847764561754658767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-29401558386233205022010-07-13T15:30:27.873+01:002010-07-13T15:30:27.873+01:00The CofE has a problem in all of this which is of ...The CofE has a problem in all of this which is of it's own making. It states that there are THREE orders of ministry. Scripture does not in fact support such a claim - but does see some presbyters as having a wider responsibility than others - becoming area overseers or bishops.<br /><br />The EC-FCE has a TWO-FOLD order of ministry. So I as a bishop am appointed/elected by the body as a whole, and then consecrated by the PRESBYTERS. This actually means that not only do we steer clear of the idea of 'bishop for life', which means bishops are never removeable, but also it means that my 'bishopness' is an office of the church, rather than being a title which I personally own.<br /><br />Whilst the CofE continues with a three-fold order of ministry the bishop is given far too much power and is not responsible enough to the church as a whole. I would far rather our situation where I don't have the ability to do many things on my own, but am responsible to the whole of the church. <br /><br />(Our presiding bishop is, of course, re-elected every year, so he would soon be gone if he behaved as CofE bishops do!)Dominicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-36894063443107030942010-07-13T14:20:36.096+01:002010-07-13T14:20:36.096+01:00John, I think that's a false dichotomy. Certai...John, I think that's a false dichotomy. Certainly ordination doesn't change a person. But that doesn't mean it's just an "authorization of a role". In the ordinal, in the service of ordination and consecration, at the laying on hands, the bishop says:<br />"Receive the Holy Ghost for the office and work of a Priest/Bishop".<br />Not just "work"- function. But office.<br /><br />I thoroughly agree on need for strong networks. Seriously, when would you like to come and preach here?<br /><br />Stephen Walton, MarburyStephen Waltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18442509405293891085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-58072578072346331212010-07-13T14:14:58.770+01:002010-07-13T14:14:58.770+01:00John
Thanks for this. But we need to understand th...John<br />Thanks for this. But we need to understand that the reason we are at 6's and 7's over this is that we have not defined what ordination is. I agree with Cranmer (!!) that it is not a matter of "grace" or "more of the promise of God" given in ordination but nevertheless ordination is ordination to an OFFICE (restricted to men) and not merely to a FUNCTION in the church.<br />NigelNigelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-31105605087282281012010-07-13T13:24:27.529+01:002010-07-13T13:24:27.529+01:00Nigel and Rubati - I doubt we want to get into too...Nigel and Rubati - I doubt we want to get into too much of a conflict over this, given the urgency of other matters, but I take it that Anglican ordination is an authorization of a role, based on a recognition of equipping, rather than something which itself changes (and therefore equips) the ordained person for the role.<br /><br />Cranmer made this comment: "In the admission of many of these officers [civil and ecclesiastical] be divers comely ceremonies and solemnities used, which be not of necessity, but only for good order and seemly fashion: for if such offices and ministrations were committed without such solemnity, they were nevertheless truly committed. And there is no more promise of God, that grace is given in the committing of the ecclesiastical office, than it is in the committing of the civil office." ("Questions and Answers Concerning the Sacraments")Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-56013637217975140312010-07-13T13:00:08.269+01:002010-07-13T13:00:08.269+01:00Haha, I've both developed my argument from bot...Haha, I've both developed my argument from both the Scriptures and the Ordinal in my post here,<br /><br />http://logos-pistis.blogspot.com/2010/07/on-theology-of-ordained-ministry.htmlThe Talking Donkeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14890750936428247322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-54861144871291711872010-07-13T12:16:46.547+01:002010-07-13T12:16:46.547+01:00John
The scriptures teach that those who are teach...John<br />The scriptures teach that those who are teachers in the Church are to be more severely judged than those who are not. Why? Becasue they have been set apart and authority has been conferred upon them in a way that is denied the laity..As Christ’s under-shepherds they are distinct from the sheep they feed..ect ect ect<br />NigelNigelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-40036175676399491972010-07-13T12:03:58.985+01:002010-07-13T12:03:58.985+01:00Respectfully, might it be too much to ask what the...Respectfully, might it be too much to ask what the Ordinal and the Scriptures say?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-40328387815295399092010-07-13T11:55:14.949+01:002010-07-13T11:55:14.949+01:00"Here then is a massive divide between those ..."Here then is a massive divide between those who take a mere functional view of ordination and those who (like Calvin and Hooker and other magesterial Reformers) regard ordination as conferring a "principal bond" of unity and communion(so Calvin)or as the putting on of a "cloak" that cannot be removed (Hooker)"<br /><br />Yup, I second you here Nigel, I've written a blog post with a similar view, i.e., that ordination is a matter of "catholicity", i.e, recognition and communion with the wider Catholic Church.<br /><br />http://logos-pistis.blogspot.com/search/label/Ordained%20MinistryThe Talking Donkeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14890750936428247322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-3350644739725751362010-07-13T11:33:20.541+01:002010-07-13T11:33:20.541+01:00John
Here then is a massive divide between those w...John<br />Here then is a massive divide between those who take a mere functional view of ordination and those who (like Calvin and Hooker and other magesterial Reformers) regard ordination as conferring a "principal bond" of unity and communion(so Calvin)or as the putting on of a "cloak" that cannot be removed (Hooker). Calvin was to say that those who treat ordination lightly (ie as a function)inadvertently plot the devastation and ruin of the Church!!Nigelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-85901447308868025972010-07-13T11:25:23.332+01:002010-07-13T11:25:23.332+01:00Steve, if that's what it requires, that's ...Steve, if that's what it requires, that's what you should do - and she'd have to take it from there, which would be interesting. This is why I think establishing strong networks is so vital now. If we all start firing off as individuals we'll get nowhere. As Benjamin Franklin said, "Gentlemen, we must all hang together or we shall most assuredly all hang separately."<br /><br />Start inviting your local 'Reform' types to preach in your church. This is the first move.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-60169380879537294412010-07-13T11:12:51.273+01:002010-07-13T11:12:51.273+01:00Surely faithfulness (and honesty) would require me...Surely faithfulness (and honesty) would require me, if a woman was appointed as bishop of Chester, to write to her and tell her that I did not recognise her authority, and that did not consider my oath of obedience binding in these circumstances? <br /><br />Stephen Walton, MarburyStephen Waltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18442509405293891085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-74437844180297976252010-07-13T10:56:30.661+01:002010-07-13T10:56:30.661+01:00Nigel, you're quite right, I do take an entire...Nigel, you're quite right, I do take an entirely functional view of <i>ordination</i>, insofar as it is to the function of publicly ministering the word of God and the sacraments. My old friend and mentor Harry Sutton was very explicit in emphasizing this when I asked him 18 years ago about what should be our Evangelical priorities.<br /><br />Of course, we should not accept unfaithfulness in ministry, and in this regard some of us will not be able to accept aspects of the ordained ministry of women priests and (more especially) bishops. (I would personally exclude some areas of ministry from these objections.)<br /><br />The trouble is, the Church of England has accepted and almost encouraged unfaithfulness amongst its <i>men</i> for many years and that is partly why we are in this mess.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-15060494604443463872010-07-13T10:52:03.291+01:002010-07-13T10:52:03.291+01:00David, you need to make sure you're on the cur...David, you need to make sure you're on the current e-mail list. E-mail me via the link at the bottom of the blog and I'll send you details.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-30013928625514014682010-07-13T10:20:40.941+01:002010-07-13T10:20:40.941+01:00Interesting post John
However the trouble is that ...Interesting post John<br />However the trouble is that you seem to be working with a functional view of ordination and this has bedevilled the evangelical response to female presbyter/bishops for some 20 years. Faithfulness to Scripture means that we cannon accept unfaithfulness in the Church's Ministry. If the Reformers had done that there would have been no Reformation!!<br />NigelNigelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-62743404156685983462010-07-13T10:03:53.114+01:002010-07-13T10:03:53.114+01:00John, a good and thoughtful post - many thanks.
I...John, a good and thoughtful post - many thanks.<br /><br />I know you have started a Chelmsford branch of the FCA, but apart from that, I have to say I have heard absolutely nothing whatsoever from it about anything, either publicly or by e-mail, since I "joined" it some months ago. Have you any ideas what is going on with it? Why are they so quiet all the time?<br /><br />Regards<br />David BakerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-88171653903946736872010-07-13T06:39:09.004+01:002010-07-13T06:39:09.004+01:00Although an American, at age 13 I read Lewis' ...Although an American, at age 13 I read Lewis' Letters To Malcolm and was hooked. Now I'm part of the group separated from TEC for reasons of faithlessness on the part of the leadership-not only currently but going back at least 140 years.<br /><br />I have no evangelical colleagues with which to rub elbows. We were promised a place in the pews and and now its take-it-or-leave-it from the anglo-catholics.<br /><br />I'll be making a move to Reformed Theology in a local presby church that is loving and solid.<br /><br />It saddens me at a time when there should be growing unity in the Anglican Communion worldwide between disciples, there is instead the left-hand of fellowship.<br /><br />I've enjoyed this blog and follow, though rarely post.<br /><br />See you later,<br />if not here,<br />then over there.gralanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11962765327947202938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-63527386298474595562010-07-13T00:55:34.801+01:002010-07-13T00:55:34.801+01:00An excellent, thoughtful, calm and informative pos...An excellent, thoughtful, calm and informative post! The most difficult thing I find about anglican church life is that doctrine is considered so anathema. There is only one commandment: One mustn't ever say anything that might hurt feelings. 'Don't ask don't tell' and 'cuckoo in the nest' are spot on. Don't people realise how vital good theology is to our understanding of God's nature and the work He's done in us? Even the liberals could at least teach us what it is they don't accept and why. Instead we are fed mush and bleh and self-help gruel. Where are the courageous men who will love the sheep enough to preach the hard things that make God's mercy and love so incomprehensibly joyous?<br /><br />On the other hand, since it seems about 95% of most congregations these days are female, maybe the small number of men should be required to go to the pub during any sermon given by female clergy? That would keep things biblical and I don't suppose the men would complain. :-/Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395534300762460678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-89535234663526353872010-07-12T22:44:38.214+01:002010-07-12T22:44:38.214+01:00Nick - thanks for that encouragement, and I trust ...Nick - thanks for that encouragement, and I trust you are enjoying life on your side of that particular river. It must be relatively tranquil!<br /><br />Mike - I think I'm a blogger rather than a leader. To qualify as a leader you have to have people who will follow your lead, and I don't think I'm quite in that position!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.com