tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post6559420513205094503..comments2024-03-29T08:14:29.603+01:00Comments on The Ugley Vicar: The future of Anglican ministry: "A new authority — and with teaching"?Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-31581732936966583822010-03-06T18:15:15.235+01:002010-03-06T18:15:15.235+01:00If you say to ones who favors WO, "let's ...If you say to ones who favors WO, "let's have a debate about this where we hold ourselves accountable to Scripture and tradition (however defined), they will refuse to debate. The AC-NA crowd is all over the board on the question and it defends itself by claiming that the diversity demonstrates that God is with them. Mind boggling. I'm with "1662 BCP" in this, but AC-NA is so far from having common ground on anything related to doctrine that the prospect of a godly debate on something as complicated as WO is out of the question.Hudsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05511526445868840330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-60494136423084839462010-03-06T14:58:45.273+01:002010-03-06T14:58:45.273+01:00Tim Goodbody,
You ask an important question,"...Tim Goodbody,<br />You ask an important question,"when was the last time anyone went to an ordination in which the prayer book rite was used?" I'll hazard a guess and say not in a bloody long time. I have been using only the 1662 BCP for all of our Services since 2003. I rather doubt there is even one other parish in the entire USA that uses it. All we have over here are either self-described Anglo-Catholics who follow either the Anglican or American Missals or even use a Roman Missal, or you have folks who use the American 1928 Prayer Book or you have the TEC and AC/NA crowd who use either the American 1979 Book or just make up their own services as the Convergence Churches do, with the requisite appeals to some questionable antiquity. No, 1662 is what I have used, what I am using and what I will continue to use.RMBrutonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15017576806723146013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-58809024016444001452010-03-03T15:36:27.458+01:002010-03-03T15:36:27.458+01:00Tim Keene comments
The way authority and teaching...Tim Keene comments<br /><br />The way authority and teaching and leadership cohere is something that I think is unclear. Belleville has commented that nowhere in the NT is authority (exousia) linked to church leadership. Thus I think some careful thinking needs to be done on this issue. <br /><br />On pragmatic grounds, the link between teaching and leadership is also problematic. The skills needed for teaching are not identical with leading. Although some able teachers are also able leades, some able teachers are lousy leaders. Some able leaders are quite modest in their teaching skills. Yet in some church traditions, and Reform is a good example, the two roles are virtually identified.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-65713037895282607272010-03-03T14:51:20.702+01:002010-03-03T14:51:20.702+01:00However, I marvel that with a shortage of decent p...However, I marvel that with a shortage of decent posts, a certain nameless poster could be bothered to inundate us with his/her tripe.<br /><br />Oscar Wilde<br />Elysian FieldsOscar Wildenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-76605328130511658652010-03-03T14:40:11.485+01:002010-03-03T14:40:11.485+01:00I marvel that with a shortage of ministers, this p...I marvel that with a shortage of ministers, this particular minister is able to devote so much time to writing this meandering nonsense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-77841547344233945172010-03-03T14:39:53.651+01:002010-03-03T14:39:53.651+01:00Hmm, when was the last time anyone went to an ordi...Hmm, when was the last time anyone went to an ordination in which the prayer book rite was used?Tim Goodbodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02725035540031649887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-4850683221375643132010-03-03T11:26:54.340+01:002010-03-03T11:26:54.340+01:00Peter, the big if is what is the function of an or...Peter, the big if is what is the function of an ordained person in the Church of England, given that we only have three 'orders', none of which exactly ties in with the biblical model (though that needn't be an entirely fatal objection), and all of which reflect pre-Reformed 'Catholic-ontological' suppositions about the Church and its ministry (hence 'halfly-reformed'). This is why the ordination of women to the priesthood and their consecration to the episcopate is both a problem for people like myself and why their 'inclusion' into those structures has distorted and confused the debate.<br /><br />Easy answers there are not!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-39220982777015528792010-03-03T11:11:34.445+01:002010-03-03T11:11:34.445+01:00Well, John, if the Authority A powers that be choo...Well, John, if the Authority A powers that be choose to accept women, who are competent for the function, for ordination, then I don't see why you have a problem with that. After all, you have rejected the arguments that come from the ontological view of priesthood. But if you mean that you don't accept women as priests and bishops because you don't accept anyone as priests and bishops, on the Anglican model, I won't quarrel with you!Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-46098430457780631532010-03-03T10:49:47.665+01:002010-03-03T10:49:47.665+01:00Short answer, Peter, I don't. The question is ...Short answer, Peter, I don't. The question is not whether women may minister - Paul, as we know had many women helping in his ministry - the question is how we should fit women's ministry, on the basis of Authority B into Anglican orders with their (over) emphasis on Authority A.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-59790301664388822282010-03-03T10:45:21.199+01:002010-03-03T10:45:21.199+01:00Good stuff, John. But I don't understand how t...Good stuff, John. But I don't understand how this is consistent with your view that, in a time when there is a shortage of ministers, you wish to exclude from the ministry potentially 50% of those who have shown themselves to have Authority B competence for the function, and are at least potentially "supremely competent in the Scriptures". So why do you want to restrict the "any may teach who are willing and able to acquire the right skills and attitude" by excluding women?Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-21850743146611179362010-03-02T19:49:56.196+01:002010-03-02T19:49:56.196+01:00One question that arises in my mind about all this...One question that arises in my mind about all this is the assumption that ordination whether ontological or otherwise, should be considered permanent. That is - if you have been ordained, it is for the rest of your natural life - rather as if you have been 'branded'!<br /><br />Yet I cannot find in the Scripture that this is necessarily so. That people are 'called' by God is undeniably the case, but whether that calling is permanent or only 'for a season' IMV, is debatable and should be tested. <br /><br />I think part of the problem is that we have set up being a priest or minister as a career option which so structured as to make it well nigh impossible to take up or even consider, other possibilities such as truck driving (assuming that God was calling you out of 'full time ministry' to work with articulated vehicles). <br /><br />I have found that such an attitude is as much true in independent churches as it is in constitutional ones.<br /><br />Bishop Chris<br />DevonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com