tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post5082086489074943207..comments2024-03-19T05:32:07.475+01:00Comments on The Ugley Vicar: Women Bishops: What Went Wrong?Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-29968279575081262472012-11-23T17:24:37.322+01:002012-11-23T17:24:37.322+01:00Dan
That's a wonderful thought, nearly as radi...Dan<br />That's a wonderful thought, nearly as radical as giving everybody one vote. In General Synod, 200 clergy represent 8000 serving clergy, whereas 200 lay members represent 800,000 actual lay people. I call that under-representation - are clergy 100 times more qualified to vote than the rest of us? <br /><br />Another thought - if it ever came to a schism, the conservative evangelical faction would be much better able to cope on its own. Richard Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14995833811532550388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-51888136451563957572012-11-23T15:08:43.969+01:002012-11-23T15:08:43.969+01:00Yes Richard, and re. your final sentence, imagine ...Yes Richard, and re. your final sentence, imagine if voting power in Synod was represented by amount given to the national church. Would opponents (including those large, rich conservative evangelical churches which liberals always mention with contempt) actually make a majority?<br /><br />DanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-14272953850066761112012-11-23T11:13:20.915+01:002012-11-23T11:13:20.915+01:00Does anybody actually know what the 'mind of t...Does anybody actually know what the 'mind of the church' is on this issue? As I have often pointed out, the rather strange way we go about democracy in the C of E gives the ordinary church member no say at all in what happens in General Synod - we don't even get the equivalent of a General Election every five years to really express our feelings. This has allowed a determined minority to dominate General Synod in the 40 years of its existence, regardless of what anyone else might think. <br /><br />Finally, the worm has turned. As Susie Leafe pointed out on Newsnight last night, the 60/40 split in the House of Laity on women's ministry issues has been almost unchanged since 1975. It's marginal and always has been, and a 40% minority is one you can't ignore. (Unless, of course, it's a homosexual minority -in which case you can't ignore it however small it is). <br /><br />If anything comes out of this mess, I hope it will be more transparency, and a realisation that people can and will simply give up and walk away from the C of E, as they have done in large numbers in other provinces. A great number of people give a lot of money to the church to allow it to function, and they have the right to be heard. <br />Richard Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14995833811532550388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-78684565272046645772012-11-22T17:28:21.460+01:002012-11-22T17:28:21.460+01:00"Details are hard to come by, but it appears ..."Details are hard to come by, but it appears that the margin of success was 'two votes'. I presume that means that it got the required two-thirds majority in the House of Laity by that slim margin."<br /><br />That's right Richard - and it got it on false pretences in at least two respects. One is the one I explained on a previous thread, namely that virtually everyone voting 'pro' actually voted AGAINST WOMEN BISHOPS as an integral part of the measure, out of sheer cynicism so as to get at least women priests through.<br /><br />The other is the assurances provided by none other than the new AoC George Carey, that voting for this wouldn't imply any movement along the 'gay agenda' in the church. An assurance which for almost a decade now has been shown to be worthless.<br /><br />It's interesting to consider that at the same time as making these empty noises, Dr Carey had actually threatened to resign if the measure had failed. So really, when he tried reassuring waverers, the first proper question they should have asked him was: "Excuse me, your Grace - what's your salary?"<br /><br />DanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-34606313820381099932012-11-22T14:52:46.218+01:002012-11-22T14:52:46.218+01:00A nagging thought got me to investigate what happe...A nagging thought got me to investigate what happened almost exactly 20 years ago, on November 11th 1992, when the original legislation to permit womens' ordination was passed. Details are hard to come by, but it appears that the margin of success was 'two votes'. I presume that means that it got the required two-thirds majority in the House of Laity by that slim margin.<br />This week, however, the vote came down to that same slim margin again, except that the vote went the other way. In twenty years, only three people on Synod appear to have changed their mind. <br />So how is it, therefore, that this week was a disaster for the church. Democracy, in the rather strange form we practice it in the C of E, has prevailed, has it not? Richard Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14995833811532550388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-59539187093833544492012-11-22T13:43:37.755+01:002012-11-22T13:43:37.755+01:00Something went wrong at the beginning of paragraph...Something went wrong at the beginning of paragraph 14: "It soon became clear, however, such these proposals" - do you mean "that such", "that these", "that such proposals as these", or something else?<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />David Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-73176955156884384912012-11-22T11:58:30.732+01:002012-11-22T11:58:30.732+01:00Kiwianglo, you may well be right. I stand by my an...Kiwianglo, you may well be right. I stand by my analysis of why the legislation failed - I do think it would have gone through had there been just a smidgen more 'give'. However, I would just mention the warning (given, I think, in the Manchester Report) that a single Clause church would actually be more narrow than Anglicanism in recent years.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-17762469666125697822012-11-22T11:11:35.181+01:002012-11-22T11:11:35.181+01:00Thank you, John for your unbiased analysis. It wou...Thank you, John for your unbiased analysis. It would seem to have made things a lot more easy for the 'single-Clause' to pass through the general synod next time -if, as you say, it was really the supporters of Women Bishops who enabled this debacle. So in fact, the dissenters could, in the long run, miss out on their objective. Women Bishops may be ordained under the same provision as their male colleagues. And that's what, seemingly, the C.of E. majority wants.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-82431822997409755222012-11-22T02:21:47.265+01:002012-11-22T02:21:47.265+01:00Thanks for this analysis, John. Good to be able to...Thanks for this analysis, John. Good to be able to find some facts amid all the regrettable comments/articles/mis-reporting.<br /><br />Rich Blayney, GatesheadRichard Blayneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12944060295437222901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-71962980771948487802012-11-22T01:41:25.344+01:002012-11-22T01:41:25.344+01:00The comment about waiting "many years" t...The comment about waiting "many years" that so many people are saying really bemuses me, because they were clearly not listening to the Archbishop of York when he said "...it cannot come up again in the life of this synod UNLESS it is brought to the presidents and the chairs of the houses of clergy and laity"! The issue is getting the right result that both "extremes" of the debate can agree to and then call on synod to vote for.Youthpastahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01804231190378769527noreply@blogger.com