tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post4745800255388279944..comments2024-03-29T06:46:24.700+01:00Comments on The Ugley Vicar: Re-imagining ChurchAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-73626563079953902652013-04-01T06:03:46.532+01:002013-04-01T06:03:46.532+01:00There is no dying church its a people who are dyin...There is no dying church its a people who are dying.. They have lock to believe and faith to the Lord. That is why missionaries are here to keep reminding us.<br /><br />Thanks and God Bless!link for FCF FamilyCarehttp://www.familycare.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-61216611226257370592013-03-21T17:39:58.519+01:002013-03-21T17:39:58.519+01:00Thanks Graham. Like you, I am not at all sure we C...Thanks Graham. Like you, I am not at all sure we CAN do this. For a start, there is far too much investment already in status. I remember Bishop Colin Buchanan saying that one of the most significant things about bishops was their rarity value - in other words, we kept the numbers small quite deliberately to make the post important. Where would the prizes be if we had lots of bishops?<br /><br />Nevertheless, I am willing to knock on the doors to see if any of them open.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-4274118402415903502013-03-21T17:26:34.495+01:002013-03-21T17:26:34.495+01:00John. You have said much in your post which impo...John. You have said much in your post which impose constraints on time and space.<br /><br />Allen was indeed a visionary and you are,I believe, wholly right that "his vision has yet to find its full realization". His book on the 'Spontaneous Expansion.....was preceded by its forerunner, namely, "Missionary Methods: St Paul's or Ours?" in 1927. <br /><br />Both books are dated in the sense that he was addressing the ecclesiology of a different era, yet I'm sure the principles he discerned and espoused are, as I think you agree, never more needed.<br />However, I wonder if you are aware that your post title "Re-imagining Church" is the actual book title of an equally visionary treatment of the doctrine of the church - with the additonal sub-title "Pursuing the Dream of Organic Christianity" by F. Viola.<br /><br />It was first published in 2008 and in my view and that of its many reviewers is one of the best works on the NT concept of the church of Christ available today - and it has quickly become something of a 'classic'. Roland Allen would have approved of Viola's clear vision too!<br /><br />One reviewer, Dr Jon Zens, says of it: "The body of Christ has been stifled by human traditions for far too long: Reimagining Church charts a fresh course for the church that recovers the simplicity of Christ and listens seriously to what the voice of the Great Shepherd is saying to his people"<br /><br />One central question: Can the C of E recover such a vision, and can it reform its deeply entrenched institutionalism? I think not, and for that reason many reformers, recognising this virtual inevitability have had to leave the church, and do something else in order to fulfill the realisation of which you speak. (Viola - available from Amazon for about £8. An absolute gem!)<br />Graham Wood(York) graham woodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13104720099020515294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-25527479166632569192013-03-21T12:30:49.244+01:002013-03-21T12:30:49.244+01:00So you will be getting a proper job, will you, Ala...So you will be getting a proper job, will you, Alan? Getting involved in a local congregation, growing organically from there? Or will you continue to be part of the engineered top-down centralised organisation?<br /><br />DavidPeople, not buildingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16240744142818453942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-60035018168958331052013-03-21T10:52:11.172+01:002013-03-21T10:52:11.172+01:00Speaking as a non-Anglican, some of the things tha...Speaking as a non-Anglican, some of the things that are being discussed on this thread are already happening in other Christian denominations. I am currently working towards accreditation as a lay Baptist pastor. I did my theological and pastoral training at Bristol Baptist College (which has links with Trinity College Bristol) over three years part-time on a special course that is designed by BBC for ‘lay ‘ members who feel called to participate in leadership roles in their local churches. <br /><br />I have a full time secular job and am part of the leadership team at my local Baptist church which is a small rural church in a coastal community in Devon. My training means I am able to perform all the functions of a full time Baptist minster. The advantages of this arrangement is that the church does not need to have a full –time minster – we do have a part-time one but that the pastoral and other ministries are effectively devolved to members of the congregation who have been trained to do them ( I am not the only one who has done this course). It also saves money! <br /><br />The interesting effect on our church on this style of leadership has been that the membership has grown in an area which is really quite remote from large populations including more baptisms and people coming to know Christ. We are also closer together as a congregation.<br /><br />While Baptist churches are not the same as Anglican ones (we are wet all over), I think the way forward is most definitely from the local church outwards rather from the top down. <br /><br />I remain challenged by the passage in Revelation 2 and the letters to the seven churches. It has always seemed to me that lesson to be learnt here is that God judges individual churches by their local witness and their faithfulness to the truth – not as being part of some larger ecclesiastical institution. If we want to keep out lamp stand in its place then this is the way to go. <br /><br />Chris Bishop<br />DevonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-45409343424431527582013-03-21T09:28:30.203+01:002013-03-21T09:28:30.203+01:00Devon Main, but if I may say so, there is a tenden...Devon Main, but if I may say so, there is a tendency to 'mimicry' of the 'traditional' way of doing things, just as 'native' churches in Allen's missionary areas were mimicking what they saw as 'real church', rather than being released to follow a model that reflected (what Allen at least saw as) the NT model.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-60996725974357578982013-03-21T09:18:18.995+01:002013-03-21T09:18:18.995+01:00If within 'the Church' you include the oth...If within 'the Church' you include the other Christian denominations, then the pattern is already quite varied ... there is much to learn from that variety. DevonMaidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01037277157178928349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-21574918359503298852013-03-21T09:13:03.589+01:002013-03-21T09:13:03.589+01:00Andy, the 'communion every Sunday' rule wa...Andy, the 'communion every Sunday' rule was, of course, relaxable anyway. And we must bear in mind that the way we <i>do</i> communion can be a deterrent to fringe members. At the moment our congregational meetings often act as a shop window and a place for outsiders. We need to 'rediscover' the Lord's Supper and do some thinking around that.<br /><br />We have to ask, how does the Lord's Supper 'proclaim the Lord's death' and unite and build up the body? The I am saying we need to have a mechanism for allowing congregations and gatherings of the Lord's people to 'do this in remembrance of me' and 'as oft as you drink/eat it' (though the 'it' in this case is, I presume, the wine drunk 'in remembrance', ie the wine of the Lord's Supper, not a pint down the pub).<br /><br />Sorry if that's a bit rambly.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-9282747149423012312013-03-21T08:46:42.073+01:002013-03-21T08:46:42.073+01:00thank you John - another post that I'm sure I&...thank you John - another post that I'm sure I'll come back to re-read frequently.<br />one question, though: given that we do indeed need local teams to lead each local congregation and expand the church, now that the requirement (at least in Chelmsford diocese) to have a weekly communion in every parish has been relaxed, is it really necessary to ordain one of the local church team in every place? or might communion be given a greater prominence by being celebrated less frequently but as the climax of (say) each month, with the visionary leader of the pastoral unit present to celebrate it and inspire the peoplle for the coming month? this is the model used by churches in some other parts of the world to some effect.<br />andy griffiths<br />southwest chelmsford mission and ministry unitAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-40640675962357649812013-03-21T00:27:21.167+01:002013-03-21T00:27:21.167+01:00Thank you very much, John for pointing us back to ...Thank you very much, John for pointing us back to Roland Allen (former vicar of Chalfont St Peter among other things). I have long suspected he was way ahead of his time, certainly in the questions he raised if not all the answers. He dreamed of an organic church grown from the hearts of disciples outward, rather than an engineered top-down centralised organisation. Apart from Vincent Donovan, probably the most forward thinking missionary writer of the last century, I'd love to revisit his ideas in the light of today's concerns — in these days of Amazon second hand, it might happen. For now, thanks again for pointing me back in RA's direction.Bishop Alan Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.com