tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post4464800275800156049..comments2024-03-29T08:14:29.603+01:00Comments on The Ugley Vicar: What on earth do vicars do with their time?Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-17742206576492612012-01-15T11:44:01.220+01:002012-01-15T11:44:01.220+01:00I fully agree with both the spirit and letter of S...I fully agree with both the spirit and letter of Stephen Bazlinton. The list demonstrates yet again, the nature and to a large degree the irrelevance of the institutional church system as it opearates in practice.<br /><br />The above list does not approximate to much found in the role, functioning, and simplicity of order for New Testament elders. Ig these rules were translated into 1st century terminology there would never have been any elders in the churches. Is it not safe to believe that many elders (ministers) in the early days of the church were ordinary men, mature in the faith, and able to nmeet the inspired standards of 1 Timothy 3:1-7?<br />The above job description is completely alien to a New Testament doctrine of ministry, and more akin to that of a CEO of any commercial organisation. <br /> The essential function of NT elders according to Paul in Eph. 4:11,12, is for elders/pastors/leaders to "perfect", or equip Christians for THEIR work of ministry. In a word - the ministry of the former is primarily a means to this end, not an end in itself.graham woodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13104720099020515294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-33863577677207044722012-01-14T16:36:16.225+01:002012-01-14T16:36:16.225+01:00Perhaps this piece from our Lutheran friends would...Perhaps this piece from our Lutheran friends would fit in here --<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO1cfk73K0w<br /><br />Bruce Robison<br />Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USABruce Robisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00193701138386039942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-85871731919297420812012-01-14T00:26:53.802+01:002012-01-14T00:26:53.802+01:00"What on earth do vicars do with their time?&..."What on earth do vicars do with their time?' Wallow in parish administration, buildings' management and try and sort out the petty squabbles of small minded parishioners... which is probably why of the eight or so friends I have who are ordained - none now remain in stipended parish ministry!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-7057511389195627682012-01-13T17:50:57.357+01:002012-01-13T17:50:57.357+01:00Hi Richard,
Thank you for engaging.
No, I can ...Hi Richard,<br /><br />Thank you for engaging. <br /><br />No, I can assure you mine looks radically different from this. I won't reproduce it here on John's site, but suffice it to say my first paragraph is as follows:<br /><br />Role purpose (general):<br />*To LOVE AND WORSHIP GOD and draw others to love and worship him<br />*To SERVE the people of Galleywood and South Chelmsford and equip God’s people to do the same<br />*To ARTICULATE the story of Jesus, his gospel call, and the vision of the parish church and deanery such that men, women and children respond in repentance, faith and the formation of healthy growing churches<br />*To EXPERIMENT with new ways to do church and inspire others to do the same<br /><br />Then of course these points are expanded in ways that fit my particular context. I suspect that the one John has quoted looks less idiosyncratic precisely because the church concerned is looking for a new pastor. <br /><br />As for box-ticking - surely it would be fair enough for someone appraising me to look at my ministry and say (for example) "I see that you are indeed worshipping God, but I can see no evidence at all that you have articulated the gospel in the last 12 months, you're not meeting your role". <br /> <br />Andy, GalleywoodAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-82167127854790975392012-01-13T13:16:56.578+01:002012-01-13T13:16:56.578+01:00Andy,
I think you illustrate the problem in the a...Andy,<br /><br />I think you illustrate the problem in the above reply. We sort of expect, we who sit in the pews, that all of the above would have been part of your training and subsequent experience, and thus universally applicable wherever you find yourself. Looking at it in detail (and I have read it), it seems to be that only section 3 might be modified from place to place to account for churchmanship. <br /><br />I'm reminded of one of the places that all this springs from - after the ENRON scam in the US some years ago, two Senators decided to sort out the mess by promoting financial legislation whose basic premise was that nobody should trust anybody else, and thus a complex compliance procedure was developed where nobody did. It was named after them (Sarbanes-Oxley, or SOX for short). <br /><br />That's why we have box-ticking, because trust has disappeared, and if the Church can't witness to the rightness of trust, then who is going to do so?Richard Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14995833811532550388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-32119586966201424322012-01-12T13:55:56.417+01:002012-01-12T13:55:56.417+01:00Well, I'm probably the exception, but I find t...Well, I'm probably the exception, but I find this quite helpful. I'm a vicar who's voluntarily choosing to accept a common tenure role description - largely because I need to be "reviewed" (appraised), and without a clear agreed statement of what my job is supposed to be it would be very hard for anyone to review me. Bear in mind that although the example you cite is for a church now advertising for a new pastor, he or she will have a chance when they've been in post a few months to modify it (with the bishop's approval) to more exactly express the balance of ministry as they live it out.<br />Andy, GalleywoodAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-60166424079648695492012-01-12T13:49:01.265+01:002012-01-12T13:49:01.265+01:00I think, regardless of my previous slightly flippa...I think, regardless of my previous slightly flippant post, that there are serious issues here for the church. The message I get from this pile of words is that nobody trusts anybody to perform a task without having it exactly defined in detail (usually by someone who has never done it). <br /><br />And if the bishops in our diocese trust no-one at all, as the use of this document implies, then what has become of the Christian community known as the diocese of Chelmsford? Possibly the advert was placed by a parish - in which case only box-tickers need apply, because they are not prepared to trust you to be their Vicar. People of experience and training should stay well away.Richard Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14995833811532550388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-80174049188398177502012-01-11T23:45:02.947+01:002012-01-11T23:45:02.947+01:00The point is I believe that wherever you seem to l...The point is I believe that wherever you seem to look today there is an overbearing prescriptive culture developing. A form of totalitarianism in which independent thinking, self motivation, moral imperatives are prescibed from 'above' and not encouraged from those who actually execute the task they are involved in. It does not actually encourage individuals to overwork, it simply increases the work load and provides employment for those who oversee the regulated. This I believe is the result of a departure from the doctrine of grace through faith in Christ. A culture cannot be regulated by ticking boxes, neither can it be saved by increasing regulation, through a change in heart. See Thomas Chalmers 1780-1847: 'The expulsive power of a new affection'.Stephen Bazlintonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-39869360633034500362012-01-11T23:20:51.368+01:002012-01-11T23:20:51.368+01:00Forgive me, I'm a bit slow on the uptake here....Forgive me, I'm a bit slow on the uptake here. I don't get this post.<br /><br />Is your point that there is way too much in the list? It seemed to me that someone has tried to exhaustively describe the job, but doesnt the above boil down to teach, lead the church and reach out to others?<br /><br />Apart from being (excessively?) exhaustive, what are the other problems?is it that it follows the rest of our culture in encouraging people to over work?<br /><br />John<br />OxfordAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-5045162640733969442012-01-11T19:06:52.823+01:002012-01-11T19:06:52.823+01:00Sadly this sort of bureaucratic listing is the nor...Sadly this sort of bureaucratic listing is the norm in any walk of life today. I am a dentist and next week we have a Quality Care Commission inspection. The CQC has made the running of small dental practices a nightmare. We have to comply with the same legistlation that applies to the largest hospital. A group trying to help practices comply has just issued me with 12 sides of A4 describing the sort of questions that we might be faced with on the day. It means that the normal clinical practice of doing dentistry has to become relegated to second place as we wrestle ticking boxes and trying to find out was is required. As a provider of dental services, the the Health Care legistlation which describes the remit of the CQC calls referes to me thus: 'the provider, it shall.........'!!! This has all really come about because of a certain doctor who chose to terminate many of his patient's lives. As a result all health carers are regarded as untrustworthy and every movement of their professional lives must be checked, calibrated, and explained by an army officials. Also remember that without a vast army of pen pushers there would be many unemployed. We therefore have to pay the CQC £800 a year for the privelege of this guardianship. Next year they start on the medical profession. As a non-stipendary I don't quite no what to say to you full timers! perhaps: 'Whatever you do do it unto the Lord and not to men'.Stephen Bazlintonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-58979240112637445132012-01-11T18:41:08.346+01:002012-01-11T18:41:08.346+01:00Think I'll stick with the ordinal!Think I'll stick with the ordinal!Tim Chestertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13676859074652475474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-17415185898872822502012-01-11T18:38:27.736+01:002012-01-11T18:38:27.736+01:00Anonymous, you wrote:
"Did I miss 'have ...Anonymous, you wrote:<br /><br />"Did I miss 'have a duty to promote theological diversity ...?"<br /><br />Yes, you did: <br /><br />"learn from the traditions and diversity of the wider national and world church."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-58633444552473795042012-01-11T17:58:09.019+01:002012-01-11T17:58:09.019+01:00It is not only the clergy. Many other jobs, espec...It is not only the clergy. Many other jobs, especially in education, have similar job descriptions. Did I miss 'have a duty to promote theological diversity and multi-faith synthesis'?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-85317233444425966212012-01-11T17:36:42.924+01:002012-01-11T17:36:42.924+01:00Praise God, I'm retired!!!!!!!!Praise God, I'm retired!!!!!!!!Father Mervyn Jenningshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17053613428222136067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-34190403718447607822012-01-11T13:17:49.000+01:002012-01-11T13:17:49.000+01:00All true, probably, but as Basil Fawlty once said ...All true, probably, but as Basil Fawlty once said of Sybil - "Name? Sybil Fawlty. Specialist Subject? The bleedin' obvious."<br /><br />Do they think we are all stupid?Richard Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14995833811532550388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-81520277560461764792012-01-11T12:10:40.301+01:002012-01-11T12:10:40.301+01:00While I can understand why common tenure was intro...While I can understand why common tenure was introduced, the effect as with so much other legislation has been to increase the resources needed at the diocesan centre to implement and oversee the bureaucracy. We are increasingly moving to a system with a middle layer of management, and this creates a tension with local churches who do not understand why they should have to subsidise this.<br /><br />The key question about all of the above - how is any of this enforceable and by whom?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-41302101477523354672012-01-11T10:48:47.242+01:002012-01-11T10:48:47.242+01:00And we wonder why there is burn-out. I'd coll...And we wonder why there is burn-out. I'd collapse just reading the job description.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-10954388545171649142012-01-11T10:11:06.657+01:002012-01-11T10:11:06.657+01:00Try adding in the resposibilities of a 'Rural ...Try adding in the resposibilities of a 'Rural Dean' or the 'Dual Post' ministry that many dioceses make a part and parcel of a parish ministry!!!<br />Been there and done that!<br /><br />Blessings on all active clergy.<br />TerryTioT and TiaVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15819587861748893176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-16735113060561919602012-01-11T09:58:44.673+01:002012-01-11T09:58:44.673+01:00I counted 138 specific responsibilities in that li...I counted 138 specific responsibilities in that list. The trouble is that this is the actual job description of many clergy.David Keenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11872644403415655350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-55804740013094612252012-01-11T07:37:50.545+01:002012-01-11T07:37:50.545+01:00Scary...Scary...MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-29920562405094625732012-01-10T23:59:28.194+01:002012-01-10T23:59:28.194+01:00How much do they get paid?
Chris Bishop
DevonHow much do they get paid?<br /><br />Chris Bishop<br />DevonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-85137026862035618422012-01-10T23:36:05.211+01:002012-01-10T23:36:05.211+01:00This may well save many clergy in the diocese from...This may well save many clergy in the diocese from having to write their own. They can just cut & paste as needed!Simon Heronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-10195560977491033902012-01-10T23:36:00.900+01:002012-01-10T23:36:00.900+01:00Bloody hell...Bloody hell...Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09087471402725915572noreply@blogger.com