tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post2070814207657742914..comments2024-03-29T08:14:29.603+01:00Comments on The Ugley Vicar: Fulcrum's (theo)logical errorAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-75732228009336518222012-10-29T14:20:13.871+01:002012-10-29T14:20:13.871+01:00As regards to the wider aspects, surely the same i...As regards to the wider aspects, surely the same is held true as is for communion, in that we can only take a person's word for their faith and then we have to let them speak. Obviously how we then judge what they say comes from scrutiny when compared to the Bible, but to be allowed to air their views because of their claims of faith seems fine within this framework.<br />As regards communion and the taking thereof, if a person recognises sin this is not to stop them joining in. Indeed, as you say that is the reason why we join in. But by recognising the damage done if you join in falsely you take the responsibility on your own shoulders and go into communion with your eyes fully open. Thus the process is the individual declaring their faith, the pastor determining to their satisfaction that this declaration is true (and whatever other factors join in this decision to allow them to partake) and then the individual comes up with the responsibility for their own actions firmly on their own head.<br />As I said, I think this stands true for involvement in the Church in general, particularly in theological discourse, but then when people say or so things that are external they are open to judgement from others, hopefully using the Bible as the yard stick.Youthpastahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01804231190378769527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-39584703702310818832012-10-29T14:04:37.120+01:002012-10-29T14:04:37.120+01:00YP - He's not talking really about the sacrame...YP - He's not talking really about the sacrament of communion is he, rather how we view Christians and therefore their ideas. Which ends up, if following his logic, anyone who claims to be Christian has an equal right to air ideas. Rather than the Jude idea that Christian teaching has been delivered once to the Saints, or Paul's, "we know of no other practice, nor do the churches of God". Of course, he would want to exclude John Richardson style Anglicans, conservative Independents and Confessional Presbyterians, who are on Fulcrum pages anathema. <br /><br />But, on the 3rd thing on communion about the individual, you say it's very Protestant. Can I be pedantic and say, modern Evangelical, not classically Reformed. Calvin (for example), believed that you couldn't excommunicate yourself. 1 Corinthians 11 calls us to examine, or perhaps better, "prove" ourselves, but then the command comes, "then eat". The problem with a more individualistic culture is we become all introspective. We are to examine ourselves then come. If there is a reason why we feel it might not be right for us to come forward, it isn't a matter of private judgement, rather for those who "hold the keys", i.e. the Elders (don't know how you'd do that in C of E, Vicar + Curate + Bishop?). They may agree, or may say, "this is exactly why you MUST come to the table and recieve"<br /><br />At least that's what Reformed types used to believe. & some still do. But, true most have this private judgement thing going on.<br />Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08361261497867599745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-10483878210169225622012-10-29T13:50:58.922+01:002012-10-29T13:50:58.922+01:00If he'd stopped after his first statement I wo...If he'd stopped after his first statement I would have been in complete agreement with him. However, the rest makes his first comment worthless as he redefines himself to a completely different position from where he started.<br /><br />As far as I can see, there are 3 thing in play at communion. First there is the declaration of the individual as to their belief or not in Christ as Lord. Then there is the pastor (as in the personal relationship between the church leader and the people taking communion) who will hopefully know at least a bit of the personal views of most, if not all, of the congregation and therefore able to make a call as to whether an individual should be definitely refused the bread and the wine. Finally there we return to the individual who will know whether their declaration means anything and thus whether they should partake or not.<br />The third part is very much of the Protestant thought on the personal relationship with God, that only they can truly know what is in their heart when they put out their hands to receive. The pastor can only go so far before they must accept on trust that those coming up are true in their faith. Let those who would deny the truth to themselves take the damnation upon their own shoulders, with the only responsibility for the pastor being to make sure all are aware of this before the bread and wine are shared.Youthpastahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01804231190378769527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-36973655468791731592012-10-29T12:45:56.440+01:002012-10-29T12:45:56.440+01:00I think Kurht's argument puts LOTS of weight o...I think Kurht's argument puts LOTS of weight on his (mis)understanding of the New Perspective on Paul. But actually, we also need to consider our Old Perspective on the Gospels/Acts, John's letters & Revelation, Jude and Peter.<br /><br />I.e. not everyone who says "Lord lord", false teachers from among us etc.<br /><br />I would say that Baptism is a very significant thing and it's significance is the same regardless of whether it's an infant or an adult. Baptism does "mean" something, but carries a responsibility as well as a privilege. Once we've made our profession and been baptised (in which ever order or at the same time), we have to keep going and running the race.<br /><br />In fact there are a number of us who are very pro-baptising infants of Christians (by which I mean covenant people, active in church, professing faith - not us judging the secrets of their hearts). But the very reason why we're edgy about non-church people wanting their kids "done", with no understanding/commitment is that in some respects they actually make their situation worse. To put in perhaps crudely, they are signing on the dotted line (& making their kids) then keeping their kids from church and breaking their deal.<br /><br />Darren Moore<br />ChelmsfordDarrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08361261497867599745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-47166349455124271602012-10-29T10:49:38.496+01:002012-10-29T10:49:38.496+01:00My immediate reaction to this is to remember the w...My immediate reaction to this is to remember the words of Scripture:<br /><br />"...test everything..."<br /><br />1Thess.5:21<br /><br />Is a profession of faith not part of everything?<br />Which puts me in John's camp, again!Dominic Stockfordhttp://www.christ-church.org.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-35641685756513462812012-10-28T07:19:08.256+01:002012-10-28T07:19:08.256+01:00Chris e, would you like to elaborate? How does tha...Chris e, would you like to elaborate? How does that relate to Kuhrt's position?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-55355357965056426182012-10-27T23:52:08.073+01:002012-10-27T23:52:08.073+01:00"Jesus is Lord."
As it stands, they are..."Jesus is Lord."<br /><br />As it stands, they are just three words. An awful lot of people use them. In fact, you could teach your parrot. In a postmodern world, this confession means absolutely nothing until it is clear what meaning these words have relative to their biblical and historical meaning.<br /><br />JESUS: which Jesus, and how do you know him? IS: is he really; is your confession reflected in your life? LORD: what is the nature of his lordship, and how do you understand what your Lord has commanded you (if indeed he does such a thing in your world)?<br /><br />Surely, pace Kuhrt, we cannot pretend that all answers to these questions are sufficient or even coherent. Certainly Paul would not think so, or the church fathers, or the Reformers, or Cranmer or Hooker for that matter.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11978229988713658551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-91603947269712973762012-10-27T22:02:54.214+01:002012-10-27T22:02:54.214+01:00I don't want to believe in God because I want ...I don't want to believe in God because I want to live my life as I want. <br /><br />I believe in a God of love because I want to live my life as I want. <br /><br />Both are true statements sincerely held and both are honest enough to say what they mean. That is they love themselves/their freedom to live as they like, more than God. They have a God alright it is called selfishness. They don't worship or want to worship the true God. <br /><br />We cannot judge hearts but we can and should judge actions. If we take the easy path and do nothing we are no better in our attitude than the two statements above. <br /><br />Don't take my word for it.....<br /><br />“Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession.... Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.”<br />― Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost Of Discipleship <br /><br /><br /><br />Phil Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09151392742310244391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-74246545784489164642012-10-27T21:55:05.782+01:002012-10-27T21:55:05.782+01:00"And this is why when someone’s lifestyle or ..."And this is why when someone’s lifestyle or attitude is clearly at variance with apostolic teaching we must ask not just whether they are in danger of falling away from faith but indeed whether they have ever come to faith in the first place. "<br /><br />"This corruption of nature doth persist, yea in them that are regenerate".chris stileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16220270505988683271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-4525622599018954252012-10-27T19:02:02.854+01:002012-10-27T19:02:02.854+01:00Isn't "by your fruit you should know them...Isn't "by your fruit you should know them" relevant here?<br /><br />If somebody confesses Jesus as Lord then does not obey his commandments and by their life live in ways contrary to scripture then how can they ever be said to be truly christian?<br /><br />The proof of the pudding is in the eating.<br /><br />Chris Bishop<br />DevonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com