tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post1966772348563328349..comments2024-03-28T08:30:20.260+01:00Comments on The Ugley Vicar: Witnessing to Jehovah's WitnessesAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-73357230015143516512021-12-15T12:35:52.579+01:002021-12-15T12:35:52.579+01:00شركة مكافحة حشرات بالرياض
شركة مكافحة حشرات بخميس ...<a href="https://el-watnya.com/%d8%b4%d8%b1%d9%83%d8%a9-%d9%85%d9%83%d8%a7%d9%81%d8%ad%d8%a9-%d8%ad%d8%b4%d8%b1%d8%a7%d8%aa-%d8%a8%d8%a7%d9%84%d8%b1%d9%8a%d8%a7%d8%b6/" rel="nofollow">شركة مكافحة حشرات بالرياض</a><br /><a href="https://el-watnya.com/%d8%b4%d8%b1%d9%83%d8%a9-%d9%85%d9%83%d8%a7%d9%81%d8%ad%d8%a9-%d8%ad%d8%b4%d8%b1%d8%a7%d8%aa-%d8%a8%d8%ae%d9%85%d9%8a%d8%b3-%d9%85%d8%b4%d9%8a%d8%b7/" rel="nofollow">شركة مكافحة حشرات بخميس مشيط</a><br /><a href="https://el-watnya.com/%d8%b4%d8%b1%d9%83%d8%a9-%d9%85%d9%83%d8%a7%d9%81%d8%ad%d8%a9-%d8%ad%d8%b4%d8%b1%d8%a7%d8%aa-%d8%a8%d8%a7%d8%a8%d9%87%d8%a7/" rel="nofollow">شركة مكافحة حشرات بابها</a><br /><a href="https://el-watnya.com/%d8%b4%d8%b1%d9%83%d8%a9-%d9%85%d9%83%d8%a7%d9%81%d8%ad%d8%a9-%d8%ad%d8%b4%d8%b1%d8%a7%d8%aa-%d8%a8%d8%b3%d9%83%d8%a7%d9%83%d8%a7/" rel="nofollow">شركة مكافحة حشرات بالرياض</a><br /><a href="https://el-watnya.com/%d8%b4%d8%b1%d9%83%d8%a9-%d9%85%d9%83%d8%a7%d9%81%d8%ad%d8%a9-%d8%ad%d8%b4%d8%b1%d8%a7%d8%aa-%d8%a8%d8%aa%d8%a8%d9%88%d9%83/" rel="nofollow">شركة مكافحة حشرات بتبوك</a>شركة لمسات الابداعhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13751153092765820131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-66725339198578946142011-05-29T02:30:42.740+01:002011-05-29T02:30:42.740+01:00The thread is so long and detailed but what I have...The thread is so long and detailed but what I have gleaned is a debate on faith vs works. I think every Christian sect believes in the importance of works and Faith. But it is clear from the whole counsel of scripture that faith comes first because Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. Jesus, in Matthew 25 judges the nations by their works however: and one must believe that those humble souls had the faith to do good and kind things unto the "least of these". <br /><br />For the Jehovah's Witness, the main difference in Faith is whether Jesus Christ is God (or coequal with Jehovah). Can anyone read Revelation particularly ch.7 and not understand that the Lamb is Coequal with Jehovah? How about ch 22? We know from Revelation 1 that the Lord God is the Alpha and Omega but yet it is Jesus in Ch 22 who identifies Himself as not only the the beginning and the end, first and last but also the Alpha and Omega. <br /><br />And: also compare Revelation 1:7 with Zechariah 12:10: I could go on and on. If you can't see it I don't know what to say. You have no insight and you are blind. Ask the Father (is that not what Jesus taught us to call Him?)to open your eyes. I have been praying for you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-38368768587835973792009-01-25T13:21:00.000+01:002009-01-25T13:21:00.000+01:00Anonymous of 25 JanuaryAs you know, I don't like t...Anonymous of 25 January<BR/><BR/>As you know, I don't like to publish entirely anonymous comments, but you've obviously gone to some trouble with yours.<BR/><BR/>However, it still comes back to the question I basically ask of anyone - Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Muslim or 'Christian' - how can I (we) be saved?<BR/><BR/>The answer is, by grace, through faith, as a result of Jesus' death for my sins. All the rest is the outliving of salvation. Praise the Lord!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-72194941079523675562009-01-25T07:45:00.000+01:002009-01-25T07:45:00.000+01:00This is a common misconception of our work and our...This is a common misconception of our work and our belief. It's understandable why some may feel this way, because we do feel, as Christians and as his creation, obligated to do this work. However this is not our motivation. We can’t earn anything; everything we have is a gift from God. <BR/> <BR/>Salvation is a free gift, because our current sinful state legislates death. We have descended from Adam and Eve, who sinned and lost their clean standing before God. In that sinful state, they conceived children and passed on that imperfection to us. Out of love, God gave us the Ransom, as a free gift, to redeem us out of that sinful state, basically putting us back on par with Adam and Eve before they sinned. However the ransom doesn’t guarantee our salvation, it just gives us back what Adam had lost.<BR/><BR/>Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” KJV<BR/><BR/>Romans 5:12: “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” KJV<BR/><BR/>Romans 5:19: “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” KJV<BR/><BR/>Romans 5:18: “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.” KJV<BR/><BR/>1 Timothy 2:5, 6 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” KJV<BR/> <BR/>In other words, the Ransom gets us out of dept, but we then have to stay out of dept. It doesn’t give us a free pass to do what ever we want. In order to stay alive or keep that gift, we must obey God’s commandments, just like Adam and Eve were supposed to do. Obedience is the other half of the equation. <BR/><BR/>Ecclesiastes 12:13: “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man” KJV<BR/><BR/>Jesus’ half brother James wrote: “Faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself.” He further said: “Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works.” James pointed out that even the demons “believe and shudder,” but that belief will not save them because of their disobediance. Abraham, on the other hand, had both faith and works. “His faith worked along with his works and by his works his faith was perfected.” James repeated: “Faith without works is dead.”—James 2:17-26.<BR/><BR/>So our faith or belief in Jesus Ransom motivates us to obey God’s commandments, especially the commandment Jesus himself gave to his followers. And by following his example, we becoming Christ-like or Christens. One of the most important commandments was to preach the good news of the Kingdom to all nations:<BR/><BR/>Matt 28:18-20: “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” KJV<BR/><BR/>John 21:15-17: “Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.”<BR/><BR/>Matt 10:7: “7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.” KJV<BR/><BR/>Luke 8:1: “And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him” KJV<BR/><BR/>Act 5:28, 29: “Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. 29Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.”<BR/><BR/>Acts 20:20: “And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house”<BR/><BR/>Mark 13:10: “And the gospel must first be published among all nations.” KJV<BR/><BR/>Matt 24:14: “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” KJV<BR/><BR/>Romans 9:16: “For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!” KJV<BR/><BR/>So as seen in the above scriptures, Jesus commanded his followers to preach the good news of the kingdom and they did so diligently from “house to house”. The Bible and History shows that all early Christens were preachers of this good news of the Kingdom. Some time after the death of the apostles and those who had been close to them, the professed Christians of that time began to become apostate (abandoned the true cause, worship, and service of God). Ecclesiastical orders were established, and preaching ceased to be the activity of all who professed the Christian faith; it became the exclusive prerogative of a clergy class. Note what the Bible encyclopedia by M’Clintock and Strong says about this: “When ritual ceremonies came to supersede not only the practice, but the very idea of evangelization, it is not surprising that preaching itself became a ceremony, and at length a rare and infrequent ceremony. Not merely laymen, but even presbyters of the Church were inhibited from preaching, except by special permission of bishops; while many of the bishops, who had arrogated to themselves the exclusive right of preaching, either through ignorance or indolence practically abandoned the custom.” The custom today for a clergy class to do the preaching and for the common people to remain silent comes from these apostates rather than from Jesus Christ.—Acts 20:29, 30<BR/><BR/>So, we do not feel that we are “earning our salvation”, rather we preach “in every house” as did the early Christens, obeying a commandment Jesus gave. Our motivation is love of God, love of neighbor, and then obedience. What else can we possibly give back to him but our obedience? He owns everything else.<BR/><BR/>Act 5:42: “And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ” KJV<BR/><BR/>Romans 10:9: “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” KJV<BR/><BR/>James 2:26 “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” KJVAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-7838572590648907152008-12-16T20:30:00.000+01:002008-12-16T20:30:00.000+01:00Dear Jonston,I'm sorry that's the way you feel. Th...Dear Jonston,<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry that's the way you feel. This isn't much, but if you follow <A HREF="http://www.link4u.com/prayed.htm" REL="nofollow">this link</A> it is the best I can do for you online.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-51852184442624800872008-12-16T20:27:00.000+01:002008-12-16T20:27:00.000+01:00It is sick bigots like you who make people hate Ch...It is sick bigots like you who make people hate Christianity. More to the point, I actively enjoy helping to tear down the stupid, superstitious bigotry hatemongers like you promote. You have hijacked Christianity and turned it into a hate fest. May Christ rot in Hell.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-25573000741197624652008-11-15T12:13:00.000+01:002008-11-15T12:13:00.000+01:00John....Oh my goodness. That's the first time I'v...John....<BR/><BR/>Oh my goodness. That's the first time I've heard that. Very interesting!<BR/><BR/>If that is what the sister thought, I hope she adjusts her thinking very soon! I have taken it for granted that all of us know that we all sin daily, and it's part of our heritage that we received from Adam. That's precisely why Jesus died for us, as you said. We can't NOT sin. We can keep from sinning gross, wilfull sins such as fornicating or murder, etc., but "Adamic sins," as we sometimes call them, are with us until we, as we believe, attain perfection during Christ's Millennial Reign.Pam Tolliverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04529662565995887020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-31417392139946871112008-11-13T14:52:00.000+01:002008-11-13T14:52:00.000+01:00"The younger sister, in particular, seemed to thin..."The younger sister, in particular, seemed to think that Jesus' death had paid for her sins only up to the point where she had decided to become a Jehovah's Witness, but that somehow, since then, her relationship with God depended on her not sinning."<BR/><BR/>It is true that her relationship with God does depend on her not sinning. But if she does sin, then she has a helper in Jesus to intercede for her. But she should not want to take Jesus for granted. That is not what he was there for. If that were the case then why have all of those teachings after Jesus?Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01115946270655365230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-36788579394854894182008-11-13T14:48:00.000+01:002008-11-13T14:48:00.000+01:00Pam, you are correct.JWs do not believe that they ...Pam, you are correct.<BR/><BR/>JWs do not believe that they are saved by their works. It is the sacrifice of Jesus that opens the way to removal of sins.<BR/><BR/>The activities, works that JWs do is an example of their faith and love of God.Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01115946270655365230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-64170117515889547122008-11-12T21:02:00.000+01:002008-11-12T21:02:00.000+01:00Pam, I (almost) entirely agree with you. What I wa...Pam, I (almost) entirely agree with you. What I was trying to make clear to the sisters who visited me was that their salvation comes about because Jesus died for their <I>sins</I>. Thus we can have full assurance that sin, as such, cannot separate us from God.<BR/><BR/>The younger sister, in particular, seemed to think that Jesus' death had paid for her sins <I>only</I> up to the point where she had decided to become a Jehovah's Witness, but that somehow, since then, her relationship with God depended on her <I>not</I> sinning.<BR/><BR/>That, it seemed to me, was a confusion on her part.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-75152401035081809182008-11-12T20:02:00.000+01:002008-11-12T20:02:00.000+01:00Surely you are familiar with Scriptures that show ...Surely you are familiar with Scriptures that show that we must CONTINUE on the right road in order to attain our goal of everlasting life.<BR/><BR/>"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death...IF YE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH grounded and settled, and BE NOT MOVED AWAY from the hope of the gospel..." (Colossians 1:21-23, KJV)<BR/><BR/>"For if we sin WILFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of juegment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:26,27)<BR/><BR/>So apparently we can reverse ourselves and fall back into condemnation. This is why Jesus said we should "exert ourselves vigorously" to continue on that road to life. (Luke 13:24)<BR/><BR/>This is what the sister was trying to convey to you. She knows she is in good standing NOW, and she hopes she will never turn on God and decide, as Adam did, to go her own way. If she endures to the end, she will be saved. We all know we must endure. (Matthew 24:13)Pam Tolliverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04529662565995887020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-48343615867293450832008-11-12T19:52:00.000+01:002008-11-12T19:52:00.000+01:00Dear Vicar of Ugley...I wanted to comment on your ...Dear Vicar of Ugley...<BR/><BR/>I wanted to comment on your posting about the JW sister who you say wasn't sure of her salvation, as you feel you deduced. First of all, one must understand exactly what JWs believe. We do NOT believe that we are saved by works alone. So it is not our works that "earn" our ultimate salvation. That being said, we feel that it is possible to slide back into the evil world & lose our good standing with God, even though at one time we were on the road to life. Surely you are familiar withPam Tolliverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04529662565995887020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-65253646666586928622008-11-11T03:04:00.000+01:002008-11-11T03:04:00.000+01:00Greetings!Excellent blog! I have a blog as well (e...Greetings!<BR/><BR/>Excellent blog! I have a blog as well (endoftheworld-signtopia.blogspot.com)where I occasionally write about Jehovah's Witnesses. I think you will find one of my recent entries entitled "Jehovah's Witnesses Go Trick Or Treating" to be very interesting because I share with everyone the discussion I had at my door on Halloween morning. Most Witnesses have to be reminded that they are taught that Jesus is Abaddon, the fallen angel of the abyss in Revelation 9. Also, the issue of the Witnesses rejection of Christ is addressed. I have noticed that Pam Tolliver has responded to your blog here....she has offered several comments to that which I have written as well. <BR/><BR/>Once again, I enjoy reading your blog.....keep up the good work!<BR/><BR/>God Bless!<BR/><BR/>Stoshu Dombrowski<BR/>Baltimore, Maryland, USAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-20943928145292617282008-10-21T06:45:00.000+02:002008-10-21T06:45:00.000+02:00Dear Vicar....I appreciate your observations.I tho...Dear Vicar....<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your observations.<BR/><BR/>I thought I would try to make a point about Jesus receiving glory like that of the Father, Jehovah. One thing firstly....you didn't finish the verse, or, the thought in Philippians. It says, "And every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER." (verse 11, New American Bible) So, whatever Jesus accomplished, it was all for the Father's glory, and he said so himself. "I do not seek my own glory..." (John 8:50)<BR/><BR/>Jehovah wished Jesus to be honored, however, and he rightfully deserves a measure of glory. But I do not think that the glory Jesus receives at any time equals the glory that the Father deserves and has. I just now thought of a possible way to explain this (in a child-like way)....the sun is glorous. So is the moon. But the sun outshines the moon.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, the bottom line is, Jehovah is the Most High and deserves every ounce of glory there is. Jesus deserves a measure of glory, and actually a whole LOT, but it would never equal his Father's glory. When Jehovah said He would not share His glory with another, to me this means that He is simply emphasizing that no other god deserves to be worshipped or given glory, such as the gods worshipped by the nations. I feel that it is understood that Jesus is not a god on the level of the Father to be worshipped, so therefore Jehovah has no problem honoring him with glory. Jesus does not seek to overpower his Father's position or His glory.<BR/><BR/>"Jesus answered, 'If I glorify myself, my glory is worth nothing; but it is my Father who glorifies me.'" (John 8:54)Pam Tolliverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04529662565995887020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-30789941326928426252008-10-21T06:05:00.000+02:002008-10-21T06:05:00.000+02:00To John Foxe.....Why does Jesus have to be equal w...To John Foxe.....<BR/><BR/>Why does Jesus have to be equal with the Father, God, to be able to reconcile humans to the Father, mediating for us? Where in the Bible does it say that a personage equal to God must be the saviour of mankind? There is only the indication that a PERFECT MAN must do the job. A "second Adam," as Paul puts it.<BR/><BR/>Jesus has every credential necessary for reconciling us to God. And he's not equal to God by his own words.<BR/><BR/>Pam TolliverPam Tolliverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04529662565995887020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-12123721605734680762008-10-21T05:57:00.000+02:002008-10-21T05:57:00.000+02:00Hi. Just wanted to say a thing or two about 1975 ...Hi. Just wanted to say a thing or two about 1975 and Romans 13. You observed that the WT Society said "possibly" the year 1975 would see Armageddon. That is the way I and everyone I knew at that time was looking at it. It MIGHT happen, and it might not. The JWs in this area hardly mentioned it at all. It was really no big deal. That is my experience.<BR/><BR/>Romans 13 doesn't bother me either. The brothers finally got it right! That is the way it has been with many things. They have one view perhaps, and then later on they have new understanding. The new understanding always is more loving, makes more sense, and is encouraging.<BR/><BR/>You seem like a fair guy, Vicar, and have a dignified way about you. Thanks for listening.<BR/><BR/>Pam TolliverPam Tolliverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04529662565995887020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-14880104994661183872008-10-20T18:59:00.000+02:002008-10-20T18:59:00.000+02:00"Aldo Nova"I do prefer not to have anonymous posts..."Aldo Nova"<BR/><BR/>I do prefer not to have anonymous posts. However, to respond to your comments:<BR/><BR/>You write, "there was not a prediction that the end of the world would happen in 1975."<BR/><BR/>There was indeed an understanding, current among Witnesses at the time, that the Battle of Armageddon would take place in 1975. I remember it being public knowledge, and my own reaction, as a young Christian, to this suggestion.<BR/><BR/>I also clearly remember the English footballer, <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Knowles" REL="nofollow">Peter Knowles</A>, who had become a Jehovah's Witness being asked what he would do if Armageddon did not take place. His response, as I recall, was that he might have to think again. (I do not know if he did.)<BR/><BR/>I have looked on <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/Beyondjw/1975.htm" REL="nofollow">this website</A> which has this quote (referenced as The Watchtower, August 15, 1968, p 499, my emphasis):<BR/><BR/>"Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? <I>Possibly</I>, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man's existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. If these two periods run parallel with each other as to the calendar year, it will not be by mere chance or accident but will be according to Jehovah's loving and timely purposes."<BR/><BR/>This website makes it clear, with extensive quotes, what was said and what was just strongly hinted. When you write, "Some thought that it could be significant to the end times," clearly that "some" included many in the leadership of the Watchtower organization.<BR/><BR/>As to Romans 13, I have found <A HREF="http://www.ankerberg.org/Articles/_PDFArchives/apologetics/AP2W0799.pdf" REL="nofollow">reference to three different interpretations</A> (strictly two, but with a change):<BR/><BR/>“Higher Powers” refers to earthly governments. (The Time is at Hand (1915) pg. 81). (27)<BR/><BR/>“Higher Powers” refers to Jehovah God and Jesus. (The Truth Shall Make You Free, page<BR/>312). (28)<BR/><BR/>“Higher Powers” refers to earthly governments. (Man’s Salvation…at Hand (page 326)<BR/><BR/>However, I would refer you and others to the articles in my previous post - the testimony of an individual former witness about 1975 and the Wikipedia article.<BR/><BR/>As you say, though, in the end it is not membership of an organization which counts.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-15873125078127582122008-10-20T18:21:00.000+02:002008-10-20T18:21:00.000+02:00"We disagree that the Watchtower Bible and Tract S..."We disagree that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society represents one 'pure' truth. On the contrary, it has sometimes had to revise even its own teachings. One example would be the meaning of Romans 13, which was once taken to apply to the organization itself, but later was taken to apply to civil government (the majority Christian view, incidentally)."<BR/><BR/>That is not true. Romans 13 was not applied to the organization itself.<BR/><BR/>And no the majority Christian view does not properly apply it. The majority Christian view is that they give what belongs to God to the governments. JWs have refined that to where it is proper.<BR/><BR/><BR/>"I do clearly remember in the early 1970s Jehovah's Witnesses predicting the end of the world in 1975 ("probably August", as I recall)."<BR/><BR/>No, there was not a prediction that the end of the world would happen in 1975. 1975 was the end of 6000 years of human history. Some thought that it could be significant to the end times. But that has no factor for today.<BR/><BR/>"The point is, belonging to one organization or another is not fundamental to salvation, especially when the organization has got it wrong."<BR/><BR/>It is not a matter of belonging to an organization but that being in the organization helps people to stay on the road to life.Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01115946270655365230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-37957134581753280562008-10-20T16:32:00.000+02:002008-10-20T16:32:00.000+02:00"Voice of Reason"We agree that the gospel goes bac..."Voice of Reason"<BR/><BR/>We agree that the gospel goes back to the time of Abraham, and that is surely good.<BR/><BR/>We disagree that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society represents one 'pure' truth. On the contrary, it has sometimes had to revise even its own teachings. One example would be the meaning of Romans 13, which was once taken to apply to the organization itself, but later was taken to apply to civil government (the majority Christian view, incidentally).<BR/><BR/>Other claimed examples can be found <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses_doctrine" REL="nofollow">here</A>. I cannot vouch that they are all valid, but I do clearly remember in the early 1970s Jehovah's Witnesses predicting the end of the world in 1975 ("probably August", as I recall). There is a testimony about it <A HREF="http://www.exmormon.org/exjw3.htm" REL="nofollow">here</A>, and I remember a professional footballer who had become a Witness being questioned about it a year or two before '75. I myself watched the year come and go with interest, given my early encounter with Witnesses soon after I became a Christian.<BR/><BR/>Of course, having to correct misapprehensions is nothing new, nor even fatal, in religion. The Church had to deal with the whole issue of meat offered to idols in its early years, and some teachers had clearly got it wrong - though I've no doubt they were sincere.<BR/><BR/>The point is, belonging to one organization or another is <I>not</I> fundamental to salvation, especially when the organization has got it wrong.<BR/><BR/>PS I do prefer non-anonymous posts. If we have something to say, we should have the courage to attach our names to it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-58673531903767930542008-10-20T16:00:00.000+02:002008-10-20T16:00:00.000+02:00Richardson said:"(Indeed, I cannot see how belongi...Richardson said:<BR/>"(Indeed, I cannot see how belonging to an organization that began in the nineteenth century can be the way of salvation according to a gospel that has been preached since the time of Abraham.)"<BR/><BR/>Jehovah's Witnesses did not begin in the 19th century. The religion began when Abraham was given a promise and extended to Israel and then to when Jesus preached.<BR/>Then after that Christianity got infused with paganisms. At the end of the 19th century there were people that wanted to get free of of those paganisms so over the past century JWs have been putting off those paganisms.<BR/><BR/>To help separate us form them, we took the name Jehovah's Witnesses.<BR/>The way of salvation is the narrow road which we strive to be on.Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01115946270655365230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-76834647376149881112008-10-20T10:08:00.000+02:002008-10-20T10:08:00.000+02:00Dear John,do you concede too much? Do we need to c...Dear John,<BR/><BR/>do you concede too much? Do we need to concede that we might be wrong on the Trinity? Surely if we concede that Jesus is not equally divine with the Father we no longer have a Saviour able to reconcile us with God?<BR/><BR/>Or maybe that isn't what you meant...<BR/><BR/>Quizzically,<BR/><BR/>John Foxe.John Foxehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07991555670261426773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-51421773812227813532008-10-19T14:52:00.000+02:002008-10-19T14:52:00.000+02:00Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the comm...Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the comments on this post.<BR/><BR/>The most interesting thing to me, so far, is that none of the Witness contributors has mentioned being a Jehovah's Witness as a factor in being saved.<BR/><BR/>Instead, the focus has been where (I would have thought) it rightly belongs - on what Jesus did for us in dying on the cross, and on our response to that in faithful trust.<BR/><BR/>Of course, that raises the question of what it is necessary to believe about God, but that is not the same thing as saying you need to belong to a particular organization.<BR/><BR/>(Indeed, I cannot see how belonging to an organization that began in the nineteenth century can be <I>the</I> way of salvation according to a gospel that has been preached since the time of Abraham.)<BR/><BR/>We can (and sometimes should) knock texts backwards and forwards to challenge our understanding. Pam quotes Philippians 2:6 to say Christ never gave a thought to being equal with God. I could quote Philippians 2:10, that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord", and point out the parallel with Isaiah 45:23-24, "Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength.’" And I could point out that the Old Testament here is speaking of Yahweh (Jehovah), in the same way the New Testament speaks of Jesus. And I could point out that this is the same Yahweh/Jehovah who says, "I am Yahweh; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another" - and we could have an interesting conversation about what the New Testament is saying about Jesus when it ascribes to him the glory given to God.<BR/><BR/>But we would still have to ask, "Does our salvation depend on this, or on what Jesus has done for us?" And is faith about belonging to the right organization or faith in what has been done for us?<BR/><BR/>I can accept that some of us might be wrong about the Trinity. I cannot accept that there is an organization to which one must belong to be saved.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-27203697327204512092008-10-19T06:47:00.000+02:002008-10-19T06:47:00.000+02:00To the Vicar....Yes, we, JWs, do believe that Jesu...To the Vicar....<BR/><BR/>Yes, we, JWs, do believe that Jesus is unique and he is divine. He is just not equal to the Father, as an examination of the Scriptures will show clearly. Phil.2:6 is a botched up translation, and I'm not just saying that because I disagree with the KJV's rendering. Many translations render that verse in the exact opposite manner, showing Christ as someone who never gave a thought to being equal to God. Check out the NIV, the New American Bible, Moffatt Translation, Complete Jewish Bible, 21st Century New Testament, and more. Jesus himself said that (1) The Father is greater [John 14:28]<BR/>(2) He does nothing on his own but only what the Father has taught him to do and say [John 5:19; 8:28; 12:49,50].<BR/>(3) Jesus calls the Father his God [John 20:17; Rev.3:12) <BR/>(4) Paul corroborates all this at I Corinth.11:3.<BR/><BR/>Care to read these Scriptures I have cited? I would also recomment an excellent book by a non-Witness called "Truth in Translation," by Jason BeDuhn. Another good one is "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture," by Bart Ehrman.<BR/><BR/>JWs believe that Christ is our salvation. We cannot earn it. We can, though, throw away our good standing by turning away from Christ & his Father and the truth of the Bible. It is not Scriptural to say, "Once saved always saved." We must REMAIN in our relationship with God & Christ. If we do, we will be saved. (Matt.24:13)<BR/><BR/>Keep searching, Vicar. You haven't arrived yet.<BR/><BR/>And, BTW, I wouldn't be discouraged by a "Give Blood" sign, and I would happily take anyone's list of questions and answer them all. I have done so before.<BR/><BR/>Thanks.<BR/><BR/>Pam Tolliver<BR/>1179 Bay Street<BR/>Springfield, MA 01109Pam Tolliverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04529662565995887020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-16680461264261523442008-10-19T03:42:00.000+02:002008-10-19T03:42:00.000+02:00David Mckay said:"Unfortunately the stock answers ...David Mckay said:<BR/>"Unfortunately the stock answers [such as that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is an allegory and therefore doesn't really tell us what life is like after death] didn't satisfy me, and he wasn't able to give a satisfactory explanation."<BR/><BR/>Well, the Bible does not teach what life is like after death because there is no life after death. Jesus was not teaching a doctrine about life after death because it would make no sense as that was not a lesson. It was not taught prior so his parable so it would not make sense.<BR/><BR/>"He wanted to tell me all about souls and spirits and that when we die we cease to exist. But I told him that this conflicts with Jesus saying we have eternal life now when we believe."<BR/><BR/>If we have eternal life now, then why are there cemetaries and funerals for believers? Jesus meant that those who believed in him would get life.<BR/><BR/>"I did my best to show that the New Testament and Old Testament have Jesus saying and doing only things God does and says and that the NT over and over says things of Jesus that the OT had ascribed to "Jehovah.""<BR/><BR/>Except for John 3:16 where it says that Jesus is God's son. God is Jehovah. Thus Jesus is and was Jehovah's son. Sure they both can be saviors and redeemers, but in different contexts.Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01115946270655365230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-28434490312344477012008-10-19T03:39:00.000+02:002008-10-19T03:39:00.000+02:00David Mckay said:"Unfortunately the stock answers ...David Mckay said:<BR/>"Unfortunately the stock answers [such as that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is an allegory and therefore doesn't really tell us what life is like after death] didn't satisfy me, and he wasn't able to give a satisfactory explanation."<BR/><BR/>Well, the Bible does not teach what life is like after death because there is no life after death. Jesus was not teaching a doctrine about life after death because it would make no sense as that was not a lesson. It was not taught prior so his <BR/><BR/>He wanted to tell me all about souls and spirits and that when we die we cease to exist. But I told him that this conflicts with Jesus saying we have eternal life now when we believe.<BR/><BR/>We had friendly discussions, but the last time he came, he told me he was coming to say goodbye. He told me that Matthew 11 shows that God reveals himself to those he chooses and maybe I'm not one of them.<BR/><BR/>I did my best to show that the New Testament and Old Testament have Jesus saying and doing only things God does and says and that the NT over and over says things of Jesus that the OT had ascribed to "Jehovah."<BR/><BR/>So now we leave Tony in God's hands.Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01115946270655365230noreply@blogger.com