tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post1515114699832124430..comments2024-03-29T08:14:29.603+01:00Comments on The Ugley Vicar: Wright's 'whole of life' judgement - the old order revived?Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-60538980866758344992008-08-27T18:29:00.000+02:002008-08-27T18:29:00.000+02:00Mark B,Certainly salvation is by grace alone throu...Mark B,<BR/><BR/>Certainly salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Tom Wright would agree with that. Salvation is a gift.<BR/><BR/>And yes, there are "rewards" which are not strictly meritorious for good works done as a believer.<BR/><BR/>But it is also true to say that there is a judgement according to works by which the righteous (God's people) will be vindicated. Our good works (done by the grace of God in the power of the Spirit) will show that Christ has worked in us, we are regenerate and whilst we deserve damnation for our sin, it is fitting that God should count us as on his side since that is what he has worked in us. Our works are evidence that we are justified.<BR/><BR/>Marc Lloyd<BR/>EastbourneMarc Lloydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12532904022047805067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-11180720475442139452008-08-18T20:28:00.000+02:002008-08-18T20:28:00.000+02:00"But is it not true to say (in one sense) that fin..."But is it not true to say (in one sense) that final justification is my works on the basis of the whole life lived?"<BR/><BR/>That's not how I've ever understood it. I read the parable of the talents as saying there are differing rewards for obedience in the afterlife, but eternal life itself is not a reward but a gift.Mark Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07760258601442653811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-34910589449631984572008-08-18T18:37:00.000+02:002008-08-18T18:37:00.000+02:00John,I'm no expert on Wright (or pre-reformation t...John,<BR/><BR/>I'm no expert on Wright (or pre-reformation theology or anything much else for that matter!) and I'm more concerned of course with what is right than what the bishop thinks.<BR/><BR/>But is it not true to say (in one sense) that final justification is my works on the basis of the whole life lived? Our good works viewed from God’s standpoint on the great final day are evidence that we were in fact regenerate and were justified by faith.<BR/><BR/>Of course the believer is always simultaneously righteous and a sinner as Luther would have it and Wright would agree.<BR/><BR/>Commitment to Jesus as Lord is part of the whole life lived and it is the big determinative thing in it. Life subsequent to conversion will basically go in Jesus' direction since the faith that justifies is not alone but always issues in good works where possible and to a degree. Of course there will be many rebellions and failures along the way but those who are made righteous in Christ forensically will increasingly live righteously as they grow into the image of Christ.<BR/><BR/>Of course our final justification is not meritorious but God's action is right and appropriate. He vindicates those who are really his true sons, who (in their right regenerate minds) are on his side, his people, not those who remain nothing but rebels and enemies of God in their hearts. <BR/><BR/>This much is classic Reformation theology, is it not? And Wright is harmonizable with it, is he not?<BR/><BR/>Marc Lloyd<BR/>EastbourneMarc Lloydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12532904022047805067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-76002444435790145072008-08-18T17:20:00.000+02:002008-08-18T17:20:00.000+02:00John - you're welcome. My mind is often a fog on t...John - you're welcome. My mind is often a fog on these questions; I need to read through Helm's post very carefully a couple of times AND Wright in his own words to see if he's exegeting Paul correctly (as far as my brain can tell). As you said on Luther, we can esteem a teacher without endorsing everything he says.<BR/>You're a married man now, but I hope you won't take Deut 24.5 too zealously - we need you at the front!Mark Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07760258601442653811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-346577847671700432008-08-18T15:42:00.000+02:002008-08-18T15:42:00.000+02:00Mark B,Thanks for this link, which is enormously h...Mark B,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for this link, which is enormously helpful.<BR/><BR/>I'm a fan of 'Helm's Deep', but hadn't realized this article was there.<BR/><BR/>Due to being very busy it may be a while before I can respond to it, but I suggest everyone who has posted here should be familiar with what it has to say, if they are not already.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-336873178669102672008-08-18T10:34:00.000+02:002008-08-18T10:34:00.000+02:00Paul Helm does a detailed comparison of Wright's v...Paul Helm does a detailed comparison of Wright's views with the gneral Reformation understanding of the ordo salutis:<BR/><BR/>http://paulhelmsdeep.blogspot.com/2007/07/analysis-4-bishop-nt-wrights-ordo_02.html<BR/><BR/>He concludes that Wright's views have surfaced before in the 17th century and are a 'moralistic declension of evangelicalism'.<BR/><BR/>wnpaul: you (and all of us) do have to read Wright before coming to judgment. The Reformers *did believe in 'imputed righteousness', while the Papacy insisted that *it had the correct biblical understanding of justification (cf the Council of Trent).Mark Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07760258601442653811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-38920810006234342132008-08-17T21:48:00.000+02:002008-08-17T21:48:00.000+02:00John, as with some other comments on this thread, ...John, as with some other comments on this thread, I think NTW needs to be assessed alongside other 'Reformation-based' theologies of 'works' between conversion and death. <BR/><BR/>No truely Scripture-based theology ends with the crude conclusion that 'once saved you can do what you like'. All stress the importance of growing into Christian maturity, co-operating with God in working out salvation (Philippians 2:12), and note the the mystery of Christian hope, which is paradoxically assured of salvation and yet able with Paul to express hope of obtaining to the resurrection of the dead as though it is a real possibility that he may not (Philippians 3:11).<BR/><BR/>From this perspective NTW offers some fresh thinking into an overlooked area of evangelical theology. If, in the end, his theology be judged wrong, that does not imply that any Protestant is yet proven right on Christian works!<BR/><BR/>Peter Carrell<BR/>Nelson NZPeter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-78306235402901794422008-08-17T13:39:00.000+02:002008-08-17T13:39:00.000+02:00Further to my earlier comment, and on re-reading t...Further to my earlier comment, and on re-reading the piece, I think the key issue might well be what NTW means by "righteousness" and "justification" (same root word, of course), both of which are different to the classic Reformation understandings.<BR/><BR/>As I understand it (and I think Wright is fairly clear on this - see e.g. <I>What St Paul Really Said</I> for a fairly clear and concise treatment), there are two types of dikaiosune at work here. The dikaiosune of the person who is judged is that they are declared to be in the right by the judge. The dikaiosune of the judge is that they make a good decision.<BR/><BR/>This is why Jesus' death is needed (as per Romans 3:26) - it enables God to be dikaios himself and to declare that we are dikaios.<BR/><BR/><I>John Allister, Jaboatao</I>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-22331871902819680862008-08-17T00:42:00.000+02:002008-08-17T00:42:00.000+02:00I haven't read anywhere near enough Wright to give...I haven't read anywhere near enough Wright to give a definitive judgement on "this is what he says".<BR/><BR/>But my understanding of his conception of justification is roughly this:<BR/><BR/>Justification is not anything to do with imputation of righteousness (which NTW rejects as a meaningless concept). It is a declaration that we are vindicated (or indeed righteous) because of God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, but a faith that is assessed by the way it has issued in works. So the declaration is in a sense on the basis of the observed works because they indicate the underlying faith.<BR/><BR/>Which, apart from the imputation of righteousness thing, is pretty much classic Protestant theology. Your question about deathbed conversions would therefore presumably be answered in exactly the same way as for that - usually via a kind of "middle knowledge" - that God knows whether the faith would have issued in works given time.<BR/><BR/>I could of course be wrong, but that interpretation seems to make sense of everything of Wright's I've read on the issue.<BR/><BR/><I>John Allister, currently of Jaboatao, Brazil</I>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-65285551254932871502008-08-16T22:09:00.000+02:002008-08-16T22:09:00.000+02:00Without having read Wright on this subject my firs...Without having read Wright on this subject my first reaction would be: this is in response to the "cheap grace" so commonly preached today in Evangelical circles, where the conversion experience has become all-important while the way a converted person lives is or very little significance.<BR/><BR/>I would say that all of our theologizing does not oblige God to act in accordance with our schemes; since he is a gracious and loving God, and since salvation is never something we earn, the question of the person dying right after their conversion does not bother me in the slightest: the parents rewarding a straight-A-student with a present are entirely free to make a similar present to the students younger sibling who is not yet in school and thus has no opportunity to get straight A's.<BR/><BR/>I have noticed that many criticisms of Wright include the assertion that he is not upholding the reformation; personally, I think that this claim would sound strange to the reformers, for their intent was not to uphold the reformation, or their own insight into Scripture as some absolute measure or standard, but to uphold the Scripture itself as the standard and measure.<BR/><BR/>If Wright, in studying the Scriptures, reaches certain conclusions which he thinks are warranted by the text of Scripture, he can only be "faithful to the reformation" by upholding what he sincerely believes Scripture requires.<BR/><BR/>Even the "solas" of the reformation can never take the place of the Bible.wnpaulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18231515296470375310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-53181413437435157662008-08-15T19:46:00.000+02:002008-08-15T19:46:00.000+02:00Hi John,I've done some thinking on this. Collecte...Hi John,<BR/><BR/>I've done some thinking on this. Collected a small amass of web resources. Do some of these links help?<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.dougwils.com/?Action=Search&searchstring=piper" REL="nofollow">Doug Wilson on Piper on Wright</A><BR/>Rich Lusk on <A HREF="http://www.hornes.org/theologia/rich-lusk/the-pca-and-the-new-perspective-on-paul" REL="nofollow">Lessons to be learnt from Wright</A>, and <A HREF="http://www.hornes.org/theologia/rich-lusk/wright-on-romans" REL="nofollow">Wright's Roman's commentary</A><BR/>Mark Horne on <A HREF="http://www.hornes.org/theologia/mark-horne/n-t-wright-on-the-atonement" REL="nofollow">Wright on the atonement</A>, and <A HREF="http://www.hornes.org/theologia/mark-horne/perspective-on-the-new-perspective" REL="nofollow">The NPP on Justification</A><BR/>David Field on <A HREF="http://davidpfield.blogspot.com/2007/06/garver-on-wright-on-imputationjustifica.html" REL="nofollow">Garver summarising Wright on Justification for a PCA report</A>, and a <A HREF="http://davidpfield.blogspot.com/2007/11/lets-get-this-even-clearer_23.html" REL="nofollow">useful interview Wright did</A><BR/><BR/>The interview is helpful, I think worth watching... and it's available <A HREF="http://trevinwax.com/2007/11/19/trevin-wax-interview-with-nt-wright-full-transcript/" REL="nofollow">here</A>Pete Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14071504675978277958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9031852996869768738.post-39834128823771669342008-08-15T13:52:00.000+02:002008-08-15T13:52:00.000+02:00Thanks for doing this, John, for those of us witho...Thanks for doing this, John, for those of us without the time, patience or brainpower to unravel all these threads. I hope Bp Wright may reply (without too much prolixity) to confirm whether this is what he's actually saying. as for 'the whole of life', it does seem from the parable of the talents that there are postmortem rewards of obedience. From your scenario, it would be ironic if Bp Wright ended up making a case for purgatory!Mark Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07760258601442653811noreply@blogger.com